misprint!

[IsoHockey92]

Edit: and as for how atheists have it tough, try telling someone that you don't believe God exists. Hell, I tried saying it here a week ago and you went off on me for not respecting your beliefs. its just not acceptable to discuss atheism seriously in mixed company, because we're somehow considered infringing on other's beliefs.

For some people as you know, religion is the most important thing to them. So when you say I don't believe or something, it strikes right to the heart of them. Because people love God and Jesus so much when they are told they aren't real or when someone says they aren't they defend themselves or feel like they have to. I am as tolerant as possible of what others think. But if anyone came up to me and tried to force the fact that God or Jesus isn't real or if someone tried to call me stupid for believing, well then you're going to be in trouble.

My buddy the other day he doesn't believe in God. We were doing something and he said something about someone believing and said and you believe in that stuff. I was like, "you have a problem with that?" he said, "no" and said it real quick. I think he knew I was going to be pissed and go off if he said yeah.

Joe, you are more than welcome to your beliefs and to post them. I more than likely won't agree with them, or always give them a second look. It's not out of disrespect, none at all just so you know. I just don't always like to see that, it bothers me a little. Bu again, you are more than welcome to your opinion and I do respect that you at least have an opinion.

[JDawg]

It's not fair at all. Who ever is telling you that you are intolerant and that you have to respect their beliefs... you need to say the same thing to them. thats one thing that I can't stand about people.. I try really hard not to judge people. I mean who am I to judge.. my faith says that there is only one judge. So i just dont worry about what anyone else is doing.

Well, I don't worry about people who aren't pushing it on me. I can't help but worry about people who demand to have the Ten Commandments in a courthouse, or to have prayer in school, or something like that.

Yeah I know what you mean. And your right. but.. and you all know.. or i hope you do that i wouldnt want to hurt or disrespect anyone here... I can't help but say how i feel when it comes to God. The thread got fucked up anyway.. so i just wanted to throw my 2 cents in I dont feel that is me pushing my faith.. cause as i said before if you don't believe then thats fine. Read it and roll your eyes or say wow she is a dumbass... I'm not here to change your mind..(not you Joe.. but in general)

I agree with you, Lisa, and you know I'm not trying to give you grief. Far from it. It just stuck out to me, is all.

I am very interested!! Like i would love to know what you think happens after you die if anything at all. I would also like to know if you have ever changed anyones mind about believing or not believing in God. Also did you ever say the pledge in school? If not did people.. teachers or kids treat you differently? Do your parents share the same views as you do about faith? I have tons of ?????

Well, thanks! A couple short answers for you: I don't believe anything happens to you after you die, because I don't believe there is a "you" for anything to happen to. You are the chemistry in your brain, and once your brain stops working, "you" are no more. A good way to demonstrate this is to ask you where you were during the 1940s. You weren't here, were you? How did that feel? It didn't feel like anything, did it? That's because there was no "you" to feel it.

I always said the pledge in school, and I would say it now if the situation arose. I said it in school because I just never gave it any thought. That's a good question, actually. I suppose if I wanted to be consistent, I wouldn't say it. Or at least I'd leave out the "under god" part. But in reality it doesn't mean enough to me right now to care. That may change if and when I have children, though. Also, I wasn't ever really an atheist until my adult life. I never believed in god really, but I suppose I wasn't truly aware of that until I was older, in retrospect.

No, my parents don't really share my beliefs. My mother believes in God and Jesus and angels and spirits and ghosts and UFOs and all that stuff. She's a very smart, very rational person, but she tends to believe in the amazing, for some reason. I don't know if her faith has to do with her belief in the extraordinary, or because she was raised such a strict Catholic, though. Probably a bit of both. She was actually excommunicated for marrying a Protestant. That was back in the 50s, when churches still held sway over towns, so it was a big deal.

Ask anything you like, Lisa!

[ELISABETH]

Have you ever worried that you might be wrong?
I mean i believe in God... but sometimes i think what if this is the wrong thing to believe in.. what if im supposed to believe another religion.. I know that sounds bad.. that i sometimes question my faith.. but i have read through some other religious teachings and being that my family is Southern Baptist this is the one that makes sence to me.

Is atheism a religion? (might sound stupid.. but i really don't know) I mean do you study it or go to classes..?

Remembering from when you were younger and not practicing atheism.. how has it changed (if it has changed) your life from then until now..I mean for holidays and stuff.. do you do Christmas and Easter? does your mom ever try to change your mind? Or try and get you to go to church or anything.

Would you try and persuade your children into your beliefs or would you let them choose and if you let them choose would you support them in their decision?

[JDawg]

For some people as you know, religion is the most important thing to them. So when you say I don't believe or something, it strikes right to the heart of them. Because people love God and Jesus so much when they are told they aren't real or when someone says they aren't they defend themselves or feel like they have to. I am as tolerant as possible of what others think. But if anyone came up to me and tried to force the fact that God or Jesus isn't real or if someone tried to call me stupid for believing, well then you're going to be in trouble.

My buddy the other day he doesn't believe in God. We were doing something and he said something about someone believing and said and you believe in that stuff. I was like, "you have a problem with that?" he said, "no" and said it real quick. I think he knew I was going to be pissed and go off if he said yeah.

Joe, you are more than welcome to your beliefs and to post them. I more than likely won't agree with them, or always give them a second look. It's not out of disrespect, none at all just so you know. I just don't always like to see that, it bothers me a little. Bu again, you are more than welcome to your opinion and I do respect that you at least have an opinion.

I think part of the problem is that my belief is that you are wrong, and vice-versa. If you ask me why I don't believe in God, I'm going to talk about reasons why I think your religion is no different than Greek or Roman mythology, or any other mythology that came before or after it. So my explanation is necessarily challenging to you. And I think that's why so many unintelligent theists see atheism as a religion unto itself, for the simple fact that it claims that their truth is a lie.

But beyond that, I never understood why people who get upset by challenges like that aren't open to changing their minds. I mean, you're obviously very defensive when it comes to faith, and clearly not really willing to discuss it. Don't you ever wonder why? I say this because, at least to me, the unwillingness to discuss is the result of a fear--conscious or not--of being convinced that you've been wrong this whole time. I mean, Truck said the same thing earlier, essentially, and you're proving it here; doesn't it bother you that in order to believe in this stuff, you have to shut your brain off? Truck said he doesn't rationalize it because he can't, but I see it being more than that; you don't rationalizing not just because you can't, but because if you really think about it, you start coming out on the other side, the side of unbelief.

Have you ever worried that you might be wrong?
I mean i believe in God... but sometimes i think what if this is the wrong thing to believe in.. what if im supposed to believe another religion.. I know that sounds bad.. that i sometimes question my faith.. but i have read through some other religious teachings and being that my family is Southern Baptist this is the one that makes sence to me.

Oh of course. I've wondered if I was wrong. But there's not really anything I can do about it. I could say I believe, I suppose, but I never really would. I used to say I believed, when I was a kid. But they were just words, they never meant anything. When I was old enough to think about it, I realized that I never had that belief, and I never would. Not without some proof! lol. Also, the idea that my creator would punish me eternally for just being myself just doesn't work for me. Even if it was true, it's just not something I could bring myself to believe.

Is atheism a religion? (might sound stupid.. but i really don't know) I mean do you study it or go to classes..?

That's not a stupid question at all! I think you'd be surprised how many people really think it is one. But no, it's not a religion. Though it is a belief, I suppose, since I actively don't believe that your god exists. But religion is based, at least today, on faith. And there's no faith involved here.

Remembering from when you were younger and not practicing atheism.. how has it changed (if it has changed) your life from then until now..I mean for holidays and stuff.. do you do Christmas and Easter? does your mom ever try to change your mind? Or try and get you to go to church or anything.

I don't think atheism is an active thing that one practices. The only time it ever really comes into my life is when I'm talking about religion. Hell, I say "God damnit", and pray to god when the Mets are ahead in a tight game and need to pitch out of a jam (more evidence god doesn't exist! HA). I use the same language you all do, which is tinted with religious terms and sayings from a time when religion had much more power and influence in society.

My family, even the religious among us, use the holidays to celebrate each other. They are the few times a year we can all get together and eat a ton of food and enjoy days off from work. We're very practical in that sense. And really, there are Jews who celebrate Christmas just so their kids aren't outcasts at school and have to miss out on presents. In America, it really is a secular holiday. So much so that I don't see any reason to stop calling it Christmas. We don't even pronounce it the way it reads, so why do we care that it's named after Jesus?

Would you try and persuade your children into your beliefs or would you let them choose and if you let them choose would you support them in their decision?

I want to say no, but everybody influences their kids. I'll try not to persuade them, but they'll undoubtedly hear me talk, and be influenced by that one way or another, I assume. My hope is that I don't negatively influence them in any way. If they become religious, fine. But I wouldn't like it. I know too many people who live in fear of this invisible thing that controls their lives and degrades them. I can't tell you how sick it makes me to hear strong people call themselves weak and unworthy just because they're afraid of what happens after they die. And those that don't do that stuff aren't following their religion correctly, so what's the point? It's just a burden, in my opinion.

[Truck]

Saying that someone who has faith and a feeling that somethins is greater than them doesn't make them weak. Einstein even concluded there is some higher power. If something can't come from nothing then something outside that law has to get the ball rolling, so to speak.

The difference in you and us is that we are fine with you believing what you want. We don't say you are weak minded or need a crutch or that your entire belive system is based on mythology.

[JDawg]

Saying that someone who has faith and a feeling that somethins is greater than them doesn't make them weak.

It certainly doesn't. But people who shut their minds off in order to believe it are doing themselves a disservice, in my opinion.

There are weak-minded people on both sides, but religion does tend to feed on that weakness, which is why you find so many radical and lemming-like religious people. But do those people even really have faith, or are they just falling in line like weak-minded people do? Who knows.

Einstein even concluded there is some higher power. If something can't come from nothing then something outside that law has to get the ball rolling, so to speak.

He absolutely did not come to that conclusion. The opposite, in fact. Einstein's views on god are closer to Spinoza's than anyone else, where "god" as a will or an ego does not exist, and is only imperfectly understandable in the perfection of nature and its laws. This contradicts "First Cause", which is what how you just described Einstein's beliefs.

The difference in you and us is that we are fine with you believing what you want. We don't say you are weak minded or need a crutch or that your entire belive system is based on mythology.

Who is "You" and "Us"? Do you mean me and you, personally? Or do you mean theists and atheists? If you mean the former, you've told me I was wrong about my belief before. And what's wrong with saying religion is a crutch of the weak-minded? It is. That doesn't mean it always is, or it is that way for everyone, but faith's purpose is to either control or coddle, or both. You said yourself that you have to shut off your reasoning mind to maintain your faith. What mind is weaker than one that isn't on?

If you meant the latter, don't try telling me that religious people sit quietly in their homes while the rest of the world happens around them. They are active in politics and society, and constantly try to influence both.

And I'm sorry, but MY belief is that yours is based on mythology. Why is it not OK to say that? Don't bother answering, because I already know there's nothing wrong with saying that.

[Truck]

YOU are saying WE are weak minded. You have a closed mind while accusing US of being closed minded. YOU are being insulting while accusing US of being insulting.

And that's a bold faced lie that I said anything about your Belief. But what if I did say you were wring? You've plainly said we are.

[JDawg]

YOU are saying WE are weak minded. You have a closed mind while accusing US of being closed minded. YOU are being insulting while accusing US of being insulting.

I don't have a closed-mind. My belief is based on logic and reason. I'm open to logic and reason, to sensible thought, and to radical thought if it has some sort of (gasp) evidence to support it. That is the opposite of being closed-minded.

What I said was that if you are shutting your mind off to believe in something you KNOW you wouldn't believe if you questioned it, then yes, you are being weak minded. That's a fact, not an insult. It's an observation.

And that's a bold faced lie that I said anything about your Belief. But what if I did say you were wring? You've plainly said we are.

Dude, you said it like two weeks ago, don't act like I'm lying. And I'm not saying there's anything wrong with you saying I'm wrong. YOU said there was something wrong with it, which is why I reminded you that you that you've done the same thing.

[Truck]

Good grief. I just don't know what to say.

We'll just disagree. You twisted everything I've said to fit your argument so I'll go back into hiding.

[Truck]

Good grief. I just don't know what to say.

We'll just disagree. You twisted everything I've said to fit your argument so I'll go back into hiding.

[JDawg]

Good grief. I just don't know what to say.

We'll just disagree. You twisted everything I've said to fit your argument so I'll go back into hiding.

Bro, I haven't twisted anything. You argue in circles because you're a face. You face.